Like we've been saying for years.. there is major shortage of Machinists.

[Ron]

"Is there really a demand for machinists? Yes — even in a recession. One rough calculation found that about a million high-skilled jobs remain unfilled. This is why a fresh approach to job-making, one that focuses on mastery of skills instead of simple button-pushing, matters. "If we go back to the old ways," says sociologist Richard Sennett, who has probably studied the quality of American working life as thoroughly as any other scholar in the past few decades, "we just go back to a very unsustainable path."
Joshua Cooper Ramo
Time Magazine September 21st, 2009 pg 32

Read the entire article http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1921439-1,00.html

[ghoulardi]

  Sounds good, but.....................
  I've lost count of the number of "machinist " jobs that I am "not qualified for" because I don't have experience running a cell, dealing with spc, quality control, etc. All they want anymore is (cheap) warm bodies to load parts stay with the system.
  Case in point, Place I used to work used to do mostly prototype work and small lot ( 2 0r 3 ) parts. Over the last 10 years they have gone to strictly production work now. Why? Because its easier to get a body, tell him do this this way, and walk away.

   Sad but true.

[Ron]

  Sounds good, but.....................
  I've lost count of the number of "machinist " jobs that I am "not qualified for" because I don't have experience running a cell, dealing with spc, quality control, etc. All they want anymore is (cheap) warm bodies to load parts stay with the system.
  Case in point, Place I used to work used to do mostly prototype work and small lot ( 2 0r 3 ) parts. Over the last 10 years they have gone to strictly production work now. Why? Because its easier to get a body, tell him do this this way, and walk away.

   Sad but true.

And you may want to read the whole article again, the point of which -- as many of us have been saying for years -- is our focus in the United Stares must shift back to manual arts.
Dont forget the roll of government in education. The government must once again understand that not everyone, and not every dollar in education, need be focused on a BA.

[fanelli18]

  Sounds good, but.....................
  I've lost count of the number of "machinist " jobs that I am "not qualified for" because I don't have experience running a cell, dealing with spc, quality control, etc. All they want anymore is (cheap) warm bodies to load parts stay with the system.
  Case in point, Place I used to work used to do mostly prototype work and small lot ( 2 0r 3 ) parts. Over the last 10 years they have gone to strictly production work now. Why? Because its easier to get a body, tell him do this this way, and walk away.

   Sad but true.

And you may want to read the whole article again, the point of which -- as many of us have been saying for years -- is our focus in the United Stares must shift back to manual arts.
Dont forget the roll of government in education. The government must once again understand that not everyone, and not every dollar in education, need be focused on a BA.

Very True Ron,

Here in the Pocono's Unfortunately Jobs have been lost and lost and lost. One Qualified machinist job, May receive 20 eligible and well skilled candidates. when your 27 and have few years vs. the guy who is 51 and has many years. Its kinda hard to compete.

Ghoulardi,

Running a cell, and SPC. is something I don't think that requires experience its very similar to being in a regular shop.

SPC is a Production thing, Keep the parts the same and see where its running on avg. lets say you have a tolerance of +/- .001 and you are turning to between .0003 to .0005 on the positive side.

When I was working I had worked in a "work cell" where we would do rough truing of the stock on a manual lathe. CNC Turn a finish part. CNC mill the same part. Just the same as working in a shop. You have an order of operations.

Either someone is blowing smoke up your behind. Or they just don't wanna pay some loot.

[Gordon Clarke]

This decimation of machinists is happening all over Europe too. Denmark is typical for most industrial European countries over here and pretty famous for quality, especially in design and innovation.

It all started here about 12 to 15 years ago when many companies discovered that they could get many of their machined parts made in countries where labour was cheap. India and China were the two favourites. The majority of buyers and their bean counters only focused on one thing - how much they could save. Little did they realise that sometimes it cost a dollar to save a quarter when problems invariably cropped up.

Any country (and company) in the world will supply cheap products if they aren't paid a realistic and fair price and this is what happened. Unfortunately these countries offering "cheap" products, through no fault of their own, got a bad reputation. I know from personal experience that both China and India can deliver quality, but not if the only important thing for the buyer is to push the price as low as possible. I don't know if this is an original "quote" from me or if I've seen it somewhere but, "If you're lucky you get what you pay for, but you get rarely more".

Many of the companies I know that outsourced only for "cheap products", now blame the countries they dealt with for their problems and have the huge problem that they no longer have the qualified workers to do the job again themselves. Machine departments were sold and dispersed. 

Wages and living standards are rapidly improving in China and now some feel China is becoming too expensive LOL

In Britain in the 1970ties, trade unions were very much one of the major causes for the problems in the machine and auto  industry by constantly striking and making unrealistic demands. The fall of the British auto industry is probably one of the best examples. Even Rolls Royce (synonomous with quality)  is now owned by a foreign company. Many other companies either closed or moved abroad.

Greed by "money men" has caused the worldwide financial crisis we're all dealing with now. USA, like Denmark and many other countries can't compete because of labour costs in the up and coming countries, but we can survive by using skill, innovation and producing good quality. For those that have dealt with Japan will know that Japanese are wiling to pay extra, but the quailty of the products must be unquestionable. If you choose to deal with Japan and intend using AQL values look elsewhere for a customer. Faults and defects are unacceptable.

One final example. Many producing within a specified tolerance say that they are producing high quality if they are within tolerance. Not the case. If they produce in te middle of the tolerance then this is high quality - with tolerance is just "within spec". When mass producing on aCNC machine set dimensions to the midle of the tolerance, not just within. It doesn't cost extra but the result is high quality.

If manufacturing screw threads, measure the first components. After that thread ring and plug gages need only be used to verify thread profile, pitch and tool wear.

Don't work hard, work smart 

I heard this years ago but have ever known if it was true or just an urban legend. The US was very unhappy that more Japanese cars were being imported than American car being exported from and to Japan. Aparently American car manufacturers didn't realise that Japan (and many other Asian countries) drove on the left-hand side of the road!   

[Gordon Clarke]

I've just re-read what I wrote and apolgize for the poor quality. Loads of spelling mistakes 

As my dad said, "Don't do as I do, do what I say".

[Ron]

Welcome Gordon

[Geo.]

Hi All,
This article appeared in American Machinist about 2 weeks ago
 
Need a machinist? So do a lot of other companies. The problem is finding available, qualified machinists.
Even under the current economic downturn, the demand for engineers, machinists and machine operators remains high. Those three professions have made Manpower Inc.’s “Annual 10 Hardest Jobs to Fill” list in each of the past four years.
But, that concern is not as acute in the Los Angeles area as a result of a series of training centers operated by the National Tooling and Machining Assn. (NTMA). Since the facilities opened in 1968, over 15,000 machinists and operators have used the centers to learn their trade.
NTMA’s training centers are split into two campuses in Southern California, in Norwalk and Ontario. At Ontario, there are over 80 computers, with shops featuring 53 manual machines, two wire EDMs and 19 CNC machine tools.
The training centers partner with machine-tool manufacturer Haas Automation for its Haas Technical Education Centers (HTEC). The Ontario campus uses seven Haas vertical machining centers (VF-0, VF- 2SS, three Mini Mills and two TM-1 Toolroom Mills) and eight Haas CNC lathes (TL-1 Toolroom Lathe, SL-10, three SL-20s, three Mini Lathes). Additionally, there are six Haas CNC control simulators for classroom instruction.
The instructors, facilities and technology offer students the chance to learn advanced skills on highly sophisticated machinery.
“Some of the students have never been in a shop before, and this is all new to them,” said Jim Ragaisis, director of training for the NTMA Training Centers’ Ontario campus. “In module one, we teach students with no knowledge of machining that ‘this is a mill, this is a lathe.’ When they finish all five modules – which is 725 hours – they’re well prepared to start their careers.”
In addition to instruction in manual and CNC machining, programming, software design and inspection, NTMA Training Center classes also place a heavy emphasis on math and blueprint reading.
“Right from the start, we emphasize application mathematics,” says Ragaisis. “We tell students we’re going to use a lot of math and trigonometry. That scares them a little, but they can get past that. We bring it to life for them. We show them the academic math, bring it into a technical arena, then take them into the shop and demonstrate how to apply the math and make it work for them.”
Personal projects are encouraged. If a student would like to experiment beyond the confines of the curriculum, instructors usually will approve it, as long as a detailed blueprint is provided.
“The blueprint is extremely important,” says Ragaisis. “It’s the bridge from the idea to the project. We want to make sure they can produce a blueprint, read a blueprint and apply a blueprint, especially working with and understanding tolerances and dimensions.”
According to Lilly Ford, Ontario campus’ director, the training centers are fully accredited, so students may apply for financial aid, such as Pell Grants. Moreover, the 725-hour program qualifies as a year’s credit at El Camino Community College in nearby Torrance, Calif., and additional state programs are available for qualified shops that enroll workers to enhance their skills.
The training centers now have over 700 combined students, including an increasing number of female students.
“We specialize in machining,” says Ragaisis. “We have no other subjects. Our instructors have many years of experience in the industry. They all come from the field and teach practical, useful knowledge and application. Some instructors have their own shops or consult for industry, and some have European experience. We bring all that experience and knowledge to our students. That’s what we do best.”

its nice to see  something happening but

 HR puff-n-stuff, can do a little, but can't do enough

Geo.

[ghoulardi]

  Sounds good, but.....................

Either someone is blowing smoke up your behind. Or they just don't wanna pay some loot.

 My point exactly !

[Geo.]

Hi All
I run across this the other day,

We have spent two or more decades intentionally de-industrializing our economy.. Why?

We have intentionally dumbed down our schools, ignored our history, and no longer teach our founding documents, why we are exceptional, and why we are worth preserving. Students by and large cannot write, think critically, read, or articulate. Parents are not revolting, teachers are not picketing, school boards continue to back mediocrity. Why?

good questions, no answers

[moses1956]

This is my first post so here goes. Somebody said to me Wayne you should go into machine shop. He said you will make a good living and never be out of a job. I took his advice, that was over 25 years ago. He was right. If someone ask me today if machining was a good trade I would give them the same advice. I learned early on the guy setting up the machine makes more money than the guy running it .Also set up is more challenging and not so mind numbinglly boring. Also bigger machines mean bigger bucks. If you learn how to program CNCs , more money. My point is you get out what you put in. There is no ceilling when it comes to machining. Some people don't like to get there hands dirty or are not very mechanically inclined. Other people are happier working with there hands than sitting behind a desk. Alot of people don't go into machining because they think they are not good enough at math. I say don't let that hold you back. Most machinists are pretty nice guys that are willing to help others out.

[Gordon Clarke]

Moses  you should carve out your philosophy in granite and hit the pessimists over the head with it. Your thinking and approach should be fundamental and an eye opener to all those that only see the glass as half empty. Thanks for restoring my belief that the USA isn't sinking like  Atlantis.

I for one hope you start writing more posts as I'm sure you can give a positive contribution. 

[fanelli18]

This is my first post so here goes. Somebody said to me Wayne you should go into machine shop. He said you will make a good living and never be out of a job. I took his advice, that was over 25 years ago. He was right. If someone ask me today if machining was a good trade I would give them the same advice. I learned early on the guy setting up the machine makes more money than the guy running it .Also set up is more challenging and not so mind numbinglly boring. Also bigger machines mean bigger bucks. If you learn how to program CNCs , more money. My point is you get out what you put in. There is no ceilling when it comes to machining. Some people don't like to get there hands dirty or are not very mechanically inclined. Other people are happier working with there hands than sitting behind a desk. Alot of people don't go into machining because they think they are not good enough at math. I say don't let that hold you back. Most machinists are pretty nice guys that are willing to help others out.

That is true for any trade, the sky is the limit. I'm not good at math is an excuse of I didn't try hard enough, or I don't do it enough. When I got back into machining the math was a little umm err challenging for me and I was an excellent math student. But after doing it every single day I was capable of memorizing most formulas.

I think if you don't want to work in a office or push a pencil everyday. Machining is a very respectable trade. but your expectations have to be realistic. I talk to young kids who expect to make a fortune with no experience just the basic skills to survive. Then get realistic to hey guess what if i want 18 bucks an hour I got to work at it. I got to prove I am worth it.

Theres plenty of money, and reward for being a machinist just have to realize that we all have to start somewhere, and work your way up.

[moses1956]

Your not going to get rich overnight as a machinist but you will probally start at about 25% more than MacDonald's. A lot of shops are still willing to train the "right" person. A younger less experienced employee is at somewhat of a disadvantage. But why pay an older more skilled person $20.00+ for a $10.00  an hour job. Younger employees are less set in there ways and have a longer working career ahead of them. Both desirable to potential employers. There is also lower insurance costs with a younger workforce. Fortunately for old farts like me the machining learning curve is steep with no end in sight. The young pups have been nipping at my heals for 25 years . Maybe I'll just go lay on the porch for awhile.

[v22osprey]

Your not going to get rich overnight as a machinist but you will probally start at about 25% more than MacDonald's. A lot of shops are still willing to train the "right" person. A younger less experienced employee is at somewhat of a disadvantage. But why pay an older more skilled person $20.00+ for a $10.00  an hour job. Younger employees are less set in there ways and have a longer working career ahead of them. Both desirable to potential employers. There is also lower insurance costs with a younger workforce. Fortunately for old farts like me the machining learning curve is steep with no end in sight. The young pups have been nipping at my heals for 25 years . Maybe I'll just go lay on the porch for awhile.

[Barry Thom]

Your not going to get rich overnight as a machinist but you will probally start at about 25% more than MacDonald's. A lot of shops are still willing to train the "right" person. A younger less experienced employee is at somewhat of a disadvantage. But why pay an older more skilled person $20.00+ for a $10.00  an hour job. Younger employees are less set in there ways and have a longer working career ahead of them. Both desirable to potential employers. There is also lower insurance costs with a younger workforce. Fortunately for old farts like me the machining learning curve is steep with no end in sight. The young pups have been nipping at my heals for 25 years . Maybe I'll just go lay on the porch for awhile.

I'm not sure what they pay at McDonalds but I'll wager our trainees start about there plus a little. I'll also wager in two years they will be making twice McDonalds wage or they will be gone.But the thing is, we have not hired a trainee is four years, so make of that what you will.

[Carl]

I don't know what pay has to do with it overall. Learning a trade is the main thing and having an opportunity to work at it and make it on your own in your trade and retire a multimillionaire has some merit. God Bless the USA! Plumbers and all!

[Ron]

I don't know what pay has to do with it overall. Learning a trade is the main thing and having an opportunity to work at it and make it on your own in your trade and retire a multimillionaire has some merit. God Bless the USA! Plumbers and all!

Oh Carl, Carl, Carl. You make it sound so American.. Heratio Alger in dreams.
So short of launching into the "those that can do, those that cant teach" diatribe I have to agree with you in the most simple of terms.

Let's say "learning a trade" is why I taught and "practicing a trade" is why I didn't.
Loved the time I had to learn and loved the time I had to teach.

[v22osprey]

Being on this forum and a few others for a number of years now it seems the pay scale for machinists is all over the map. I work with machinists at a large aerospace company in Texas and we are all union. We hire trainees in QC and manufacturing and nobody makes less than $15 per hour to start.

[Mike B.]

Very interesting thread. I seem to see more jobs available for machinists today than ever. A lot of the unemployed are needlesly unemployed.

A case in point is my son in law who was a manager of 50 or so self storage locations on the East Coast around New Jersey and he got laid off two years ago. He spent the last two years trying to find a job as good as the one he had. It about wore me out talking to my wife and daughter about why he did didn't just get a job. Well he finally got one. Manages a Target Store for about half the salary. All this time he could have worked but chose to sit back and cherry pick. He could have had a job like the one he ended up with and waited until something better came along.

I'm saying there are jobs out there and the 9% unemployment rate could be cut to 4% if people would "settle" for a job.

[Ron]

Very interesting thread. I seem to see more jobs available for machinists today than ever. A lot of the unemployed are needlesly unemployed.

A case in point is my son in law who was a manager of 50 or so self storage locations on the East Coast around New Jersey and he got laid off two years ago. He spent the last two years trying to find a job as good as the one he had. It about wore me out talking to my wife and daughter about why he did didn't just get a job. Well he finally got one. Manages a Target Store for about half the salary. All this time he could have worked but chose to sit back and cherry pick. He could have had a job like the one he ended up with and waited until something better came along.

I'm saying there are jobs out there and the 9% unemployment rate could be cut to 4% if people would "settle" for a job.

I agree although one should weight the "damage" they can do to their resume by stepping down a notch or two. Maybe more damage is done with "two years unemployed" on it.

[Carl]

I agree with Mike. There is always a job to be found that will put food on the table.

[Kumler]

thanks Ron, good to be back

[Ron]

thanks Ron, good to be back

Hey Rick! Welcome back.

emoticon: (the high-five one)

[Shadow]

Had an interesting conversation this morning.  To make a long story short, we needed a temp secretary for the office, and the people with the temp service showed up with the contract etc.  Conversation turned to different jobs on the rise for placement of temp jobs and permanent jobs.  While "office" jobs were down, "trade" jobs were up. (their lingo)  Surprisingly though, was that the job with the highest demand right now in Oklahoma was CNC machinist jobs.  The young lady with the temp service said the jobs were there, but she was having difficulty finding people to fill them. 

[Mike B.]

Had an interesting conversation this morning.  To make a long story short, we needed a temp secretary for the office, and the people with the temp service showed up with the contract etc.  Conversation turned to different jobs on the rise for placement of temp jobs and permanent jobs.  While "office" jobs were down, "trade" jobs were up. (their lingo)  Surprisingly though, was that the job with the highest demand right now in Oklahoma was CNC machinist jobs.  The young lady with the temp service said the jobs were there, but she was having difficulty finding people to fill them. 

That is good news but it doesn't seem to get out, does it?

[Ron]

Had an interesting conversation this morning.  To make a long story short, we needed a temp secretary for the office, and the people with the temp service showed up with the contract etc.  Conversation turned to different jobs on the rise for placement of temp jobs and permanent jobs.  While "office" jobs were down, "trade" jobs were up. (their lingo)  Surprisingly though, was that the job with the highest demand right now in Oklahoma was CNC machinist jobs.  The young lady with the temp service said the jobs were there, but she was having difficulty finding people to fill them. 

Are you an owner, Shadow?

[Shadow]

No, not an owner.  The boss kinda looks to me to make sure things keep moving. 

[Mike B.]

I was talking to my boss yesterday and he tells me hiring temps for manufacturing jobs is not uncommon if the task is technical and if its a big job that wont last. I didn't know this but we have used a company called "Volt Technical" for temporary CAD/CAM work before. Apparently we used to hire CNC programmers too before we got MasterCam.

http://www.volt.com/template_wfs_practice_areas.aspx?id=894

[Ron]

I was talking to my boss yesterday and he tells me hiring temps for manufacturing jobs is not uncommon if the task is technical and if its a big job that wont last. I didn't know this but we have used a company called "Volt Technical" for temporary CAD/CAM work before. Apparently we used to hire CNC programmers too before we got MasterCam.

http://www.volt.com/template_wfs_practice_areas.aspx?id=894

I worked for Volt  as tool designer between divorcees. They pay very very well. No benefits. I averaged one month per job... we called it "job shopping"