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Ron
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« on: July 03, 2008, 04:37:42 PM »

What is your experience with Chinese machine tools?
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fanelli18
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« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2008, 08:09:07 PM »

They make junk,

Yes its very cheap and if its a tool you need once and may not use it again for a long time. Or just don't have the cash, Its the way to go.

If its gonna be a regular use tool, And you have the cash buy top quality tools. You'll buy 100 cheap Chinese (insert tool of choice here) to 1 Top Quality tool (insert tool of choice here)
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jcollazo
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« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2008, 10:35:10 PM »

For me, it depends if the tool is for mission critical or casual use.

Being a hobbyist, I would love to get my hands on a Southbend but the budget said that a Chinese 7x12 with upgrades from Little Machine Shop and A2Z will sit on my bench.

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fjmarcos
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« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2008, 02:21:11 AM »

I have used cheap Chinese tools for noncritical works and the result has been good.
Also use American, British, German and Spanish tools. The prices of these are higher and the quality also. I recognize that some tools  I have not could have bought if they were not of Chinese origin and cheap.
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Ron
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« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2008, 07:15:50 AM »

I started working in machine shop after school in 1958. My first micrometer was a 0-1 Starrett. Later on I bought Etalon or Brown & Sharpe. Best quality was required in the shop and if you had a “foreign” brand in your tool box you would be ridiculed beyond belief. So American (or German/Swiss)  tools were all that we would have. I remember when (maybe 1960 ) a fellow machinist brought in a Japanese micrometer. What piece of crap!

Then about 1970 some guys bought a Japanese brand they swore by… Mitutoyo. What a silly name! Japenese quality is crap!

I bring this up because we all know that Mitu is one hell of a brand name today but it was ridiculed horribly in its infancy. Was the ridiculing justified since we now know that Mitus are top notch? Actually yes.. the early Japanese products were of horrible quality it should be known by all and they should be ridiculed for that period in their history. However two decades later they had pulled up close to US in quality and four decades after that they are among the best in the world.

This story is pretty much documented in any Total Quality Management (TQM) text. How the Japanese turned their quality around was identified by a three phase effort put forth to correct their product and image.
The TQM journey was in three phases:
1.   Introduction phase (poor quality)
2.   Promotion phase (better quality)
3.   Development phase  (best quality)
Every global player has/is/will go through this. They first learn how to make something, then they introduce it to the market place. Next they go out an market the product and get feed back. Finally they tweak and massage things until the product is exactly what the customer wants. As they get closer to finalizing phase their three prices rise. Quality is NOT free no matter how many books yell that it is. With quality come cost and it has never been different. Japan did this. Taiwan did this. Korea did this. And China is doing this.
There is no doubt in my mind that any TQM analysis will peg China at some point beyond phase one. Just how far they have progressed is the reason for the poll.. They have made product and sold it and it was crap. It looks like maybe they fixed some problems and are now selling better stuff. Of course they will eventually produce Hondas and Mitutoyos and Sonys and stuff.
Everything depends on how long it takes them to hop on the phase three train. Global economy works this way.   IMO.

Ron
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fanelli18
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« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2008, 04:36:08 PM »

Everything depends on how long it takes them to hop on the phase three train. Global economy works this way.   IMO.

Ron

This is very true, But like you said quality isn't free. But at the same time as the quality improves the cost goes up. So China may have improved quality after they jump on the phase three train. But they may still produce cheap junk just to keep some things affordable
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fanelli18
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« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2008, 10:46:41 PM »

Last thing before I step off of my soap box.

As Ron said about Brown & Sharpe, Mitutoyo and Starret, All are great brands and maybe some more upcoming brands out of Asia, US and Europe.

Its gonna come down to after you buy top quality tools of "what you Like" In some cases I prefer Starret over Mitutoyo and whatnot. I personally like Brown & Sharpe Mics, Starret Calipers, And Mitotoyo's Vernier Height Gauge. And an Oddball I keep a Teclock Drop Indicator handy with revolution counter its not only great for Indicating in stock on a lathe but Works great on height gauges when checking grooves and thin slots.

Even though it all boils down to "Good Quality Tools" after a while you will learn to develop your own personal tastes of which tools you prefer over others and why. When you use them every day it gets down to the nitty gritty. How the graduations line up, The dial face colors, If the mic has a ratchet stop and how it works. If you can work more comfortable with one brand versus another. (yeah thats really nitpicking) but when you rely on these things day in and day out. It all matters.
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fjmarcos
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« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2008, 12:08:07 AM »

In Europe there are a lot of manufacturers that make tools and machines in China and India with European exigencies. In the case of imported measurement tools, must pass controls of quality and homologations through official organisms.
The imported machines and tools must pass technical inspection and homologation in security matter , precision, etc. In addition, the importer must fix a local company to each country (European Union) for technical attendance  and repairs and the importer must give a two years (noninferior) guarantee that cover the premature wearing down or the manufacture defects.
Please, can you explain me how is the process in USA?
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Ron
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« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2008, 03:53:35 PM »

Everything depends on how long it takes them to hop on the phase three train. Global economy works this way.   IMO.

Ron

This is very true, But like you said quality isn't free. But at the same time as the quality improves the cost goes up. So China may have improved quality after they jump on the phase three train. But they may still produce cheap junk just to keep some things affordable
As far as I know Mitutoyo didn't hold on to their cheap stuff. It is kind of hard to purposefully make something of poor quality (dumbed down quality) just to fit a market niche. I'll give the Chinese ten years and they will make lathes and mills as good as top Taiwan brands (Taiwan makes very good machinery).
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Ron
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« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2008, 03:56:14 PM »

In Europe there are a lot of manufacturers that make tools and machines in China and India with European exigencies. In the case of imported measurement tools, must pass controls of quality and homologations through official organisms.
The imported machines and tools must pass technical inspection and homologation in security matter , precision, etc. In addition, the importer must fix a local company to each country (European Union) for technical attendance  and repairs and the importer must give a two years (noninferior) guarantee that cover the premature wearing down or the manufacture defects.
Please, can you explain me how is the process in USA?
We should have something similar. ISO9000 helps by being an international standard but to have our government involved with this kind of thing is a no-no in the USA! Will never happen.
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fanelli18
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« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2008, 06:59:00 AM »

Hey Ron,

What Brands of machinery comes from Tawain?

What about Jet brand? I never heard of them up until about last year but from what I hear they are very acceptable as far as Machinery
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noz
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« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2008, 10:41:04 AM »

Hi, I am a new member here in England. We are have suffered the almost complete decimation of our engineering industry, but, as a result of this I am very lucky in that 25 miles or so down the road, we have a massive dealer in every tool imaginable from lathes and mills , Shadowgraphs, to micrometers, twist drills, etc. You name , they have it, the whole shooting match, , I believe you would say and usually at a very good price!!! You guys in the States may care to know the the former Moore and Wright factory in Sheffield ( world famous for mikes, etc. ) is now a Walmart!! I look forward to my new membership with interest, ta ta for now,
Noz.
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fjmarcos
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« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2008, 10:43:08 AM »

Hi fanelli18,
I´m not Ron, but I think that Jet machinery is a "Sieg mod" chinese brand, their structure is very evident.
How about Independence Day? More beer or more Pedialyte?  :wink:Best Regards,
Javier
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Ron
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« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2008, 10:48:32 AM »

Victor.. they have been around a long long time.
Chevalier
Tami
But there are dozens more makers of Taiwanese machinery that do no put their name on the product. They may build machines for Grizzly, Jet, and many other brand names.
The Taiwan machinery brands are phasing in Chinese sub parts like castings and so forth.
It is only a matter of time before southern Chinese machine makers do the whole machine themselves using the Taiwanese standards.

I have a five year old Grizzly tool room lathe that was made by Victor in Taiwan and is high quality. If you get the  same lathe from Grizzly today it will be made in China. So either China can make the equivalent Taiwanese machine today or Grizzly has lowered their standards.. you decide.
 
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Profkanz
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Teaching machining skills since 1980

« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2008, 09:26:27 PM »

The daughter of a family that sells machines from Taiwan under the Acer brand name took some of our machine shop classes in order to learn some basic skills and terminology for working with customers.  She was able to donate a conventional vertical mill to the college.  After using that machine personally for a couple of years, I was so impressed with the quality that we have purchased seven more of them.  All ways induction hardened and ground. 
Backlash about .005.  Bridgeport never did that.

How they hold up over time remains to be seen.

Many Taiwanese and Chinese machines use the same or similar castings.  The key is in the quality of the steel and the final engineering, machining and assembly as well as the quality control.
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fanelli18
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« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2008, 07:25:11 AM »

well thats great to hear, The backlash is almost doomed to happen eventually, Especially if the machines take a good beaten.
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johnT
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« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2008, 03:49:22 PM »

I have been disappointed with Chinese micrometers but the lathes and mills seem to be pretty good these days. Have you ever been ain Grizzly showroom? I was in the one in Missouri a few months back. Pretty impressive stuff.
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cstory
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« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2008, 03:19:20 PM »

Everything depends on how long it takes them to hop on the phase three train. Global economy works this way.   IMO.

Ron

This is very true, But like you said quality isn't free. But at the same time as the quality improves the cost goes up. So China may have improved quality after they jump on the phase three train. But they may still produce cheap junk just to keep some things affordable

I have never drawn the parallel between Japanese junk and Chinese junk. That makes for interesting history.
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Ron
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« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2008, 09:24:57 AM »

Hi, I am a new member here in England. We are have suffered the almost complete decimation of our engineering industry, but, as a result of this I am very lucky in that 25 miles or so down the road, we have a massive dealer in every tool imaginable from lathes and mills , Shadowgraphs, to micrometers, twist drills, etc. You name , they have it, the whole shooting match, , I believe you would say and usually at a very good price!!! You guys in the States may care to know the the former Moore and Wright factory in Sheffield ( world famous for mikes, etc. ) is now a Walmart!! I look forward to my new membership with interest, ta ta for now,
Noz.

Hi Noz
I missed this post and it interests me.
I realize Britain is not the pre WWII machine tool capital any longer. Walmart on the MW lot? damn! that is sort of sick.
SO what organization, company, or facility uses or hires machinists in the UK? surely you have them in the coastal ship building and repair cities? How much of Airbus is manufactured in the UK? Your military still buys much of its equipment from the UK?

Ron
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